G¡¦day
I have what could be a technical problem and I am hoping that some clever people here can offer a few clues or advice¡K
Background: a 99 bus with high kilometres (over 100,000), TRE and welded clutch, 4into1 Yoshi pipe. Has been developing a bit of a hunting/missing on steady throttle at 4 or 5 thousand rpm, which I had basically without thinking too much attributed to fuel injectors being old and worn. And because there has been no fault code displayed¡Kso not an electrical glitch as such¡K
Saturday: we went for a ride with some old fart mates ¡V from Blaxland up the Putty to Broke (who rides HAY-99, by the way?) for fuel, to Mangrove Mountain club for lunch break, to Wisemans Ferry for an ice cream. Then it became interesting. The bus stalled on the tight uphill lefthand hairpin turn out of Wisemans, then fired for a minute to go another 200 metres or so before stalling again, fired again to get us to the top of the hill, where it stopped and didn¡¦t want to play any more. And I couldn¡¦t get tools out, because the seat release had been left disconnected. Lucky there was another Suzuki along¡Kand that¡¦s another story.
The NRMA man from Maroota (look, I¡¦m sorry, but all you who are from places other than Sydney area might have to look on whereis.com.au ƒº) - who owns a MH rep Ducati, but that¡¦s another story too - arrived and eventually decided it was vapour lock in the fuel pump. So we poured a lot of water over the fuel pump, and man was it hot under there! Cooled it down, we rode off, happy with our new-found knowledge, until Richmond (about 40km?), where it stopped playing again. So it was water again, and again we made it home from there (another 30km), but running rough.
I did comment to Mr NRMA that I had commuted in Sydney traffic for several years in hot summer weather and had not struck this before, and he replied that Saturday was abnormally hot, 35 degrees by 9.30am, and had stayed hot well into the evening, so it should be perhaps no surprise.
I was amazed how hot it was under the bonnet, the frame was too hot to touch down along the headstock for example, and I¡¦m wondering whether anyone else has experienced this?
Other things I¡¦m wondering are: have I been thinking the injectors are at fault when it has been the fuel pump itself having a heart attack? Or could malfunctioning injectors cause the problem? Is this level of heat causing vapour lock considered normal?
By the way, I have to note that the coolant temperature never rose over normal all day¡K
And the next thing I need to decide is what to do / where to take it. I¡¦m thinking Col 10/10 is pretty smart but is he a guru regarding fuel injection systems too? Is there an alternative?
So, as I said in the first para ¡V any clues or advice? Thoughts?
Thanks
Kevin
<i></i>
G'day Kev,
You have the exact symptoms I diagnosed last summer.
PAN also started a discussion a week or so ago where he asked for aftermarket fuel lines.
Here is the link but I will repeat my advice herep083.ezboard.com/faustralianhayabusaclubfrm11.showMessage?topicID=821.topic
You will probably find that the fuel pump may not be the problem after all.
The 99 bus is infamous for the fuel lines themselves kinking in hot weather.
The rubber softens with age and develops a kink that blocks off the fuel flow. When the tank is up the lines look ok but as soon as you place the tank back down there is a lot of pressure on the fuel return hose to kink at the point where it joins to the tank. (This is the one closest to the front of the tank).
You can actually see it happen when you place the tank down if you look under with a strong torch.
You must make sure the formed kink in the hose is facing in the correct direction where it connects to the tank and that the clamp is really tight. Also wrap the hose around the sump breather pipe. Stick the hose in the least possible position to have pressure on it.
People that have never removed the hose do not suffer from this problem. It only appears after the hose has been removed and replaced or worn to the point that it spins on the outlet nozzle into the wrong direction.
If it ever happens to me again, I will place an elbow joint in the nozzle to stop the kinking.
This situation is outright dangerous and SUZUKI should have recalled all the 99/00 bikes to be fitted with a better hose.
Instead they just put the fuel pump inside the tank on later models.
Volvi, can you please make this a sticky.
Thanks.
Rgds BUSGO
"TAKE MY ADVICE"
I'm not using it anyway!<i>Edited by: BUSGO at: 20/11/06 1:03
</i>
well first thing that comes to mind is the notorius '99 fuel pump, believe me it gets clogged especially if you havent renewed fuel lines as they break down and leave sedements in the pump. being a 100k bike has the pump ever been overhauled? have you changed fuel lines at all? if not well its a definate that has to be done and you cud do it yourself. 2 new filters in pump and a tiny screen in regulator + new o rings (about $60). and change them poxy philips screws to hex. theres a topic somewhere when I did mine about 6 months ago. thats the first item you shud be approaching unless of course youve already done it in last few months. basically it sounds like fuel starvation. <i></i>
I've used a normal piece of 5/16 fuel line for the return on my 99Bus
You just use the cheesecake springy thingy and route the line properly.
To expand one end of the line I just put it in boiling water then rammed the shank of a 3/8 drill bit up it, leave to cool down a bit then remove the drill bit and the line will fit easy peasy. (a bit bodgey but it got me outta the shit one Saturday arvo and aint looked at it since)
My mileage went from getting 13km/l to 20km/l (on open road)and she is running sweeter than ever.
Cheers
Darryl
<i></i>
Kev,
I had a similar problem a few years back too.
If you end up wanting to replace the pump, I have a relatively new one here for a 99, it is in good nick the filters and screens are spotless.
If you decide that it is your injectors I also have a set of stock ones that were ultra soniced 3 weeks before they came out of the bike.
From my experience, when it happened to me it was the pump, you can pull it apart and cut out a couple of screens in the base of it, there is also screens in the regulator, and in the injectors too.
Do you still have the foam wrap on the pump? If not Clark Rubber have some stuff you can use to re-wrap it in, tell them where it is going and how hot it will get (over 100c) it is a silver backed foam sheet about 10mm thick, you can get it with or without adhesive backing on it. I have enough of it here if you want it you can have it.
Let us know how you go. <i></i>
Any restriction in the suction side will lower the vapor point
Opposite to adding pressure to a radiator to raise boiling point.
check your filters first , and as the 99ers have said probably time to check the hose condition. <i></i>
G'day
Busgo, Darryl, thanks for the info, I'll replace that hose first. Then probably run it and see what happens.
Volvi, yes, definitely fuel starvation, just the cause that's the problem. The filters were changed or cleaned at 10/10ths 45,000 kliks ago, so shouldn't really be full again, but I might have a look.
Cas, I'd be interested in the pump and injectors if I find I need them, would you let me know a price? Really I guess I also need to know how to tell whether I do or do not need them, which is why I asked for a fuel injection specialist recommendation...
And yes, the insulation is still in place, and once the bloody thing is this hot, the insulation probably keeps it good and hot, so aggravates the problem...
Lucky I've got a spare (as my mate said)!!
Thanks to all you blokes
Regards
Kevin <i></i>
Hi Kev,
45,000 is a long time in fuel filter clogs. I got tired of changing and cleaning mine every 10,000 or so. I've now cut out the bottom screen from inside the filter, and removed the internal paper filter from the pump alltogether. I have replaced the fuel lines as the guys said above, and always am extremely careful to not kink the lines after lifting the tank. I have also installed a small inline filter that is very cheap to replace at every service, and check/clean the top screen on the pump(you can get to it in situ.) It is still a bit of a pig sometimes on a really hot day in traffic, but it never stops on me ANYMORE!
hope this helps ,
cheers,
WARD <i></i>
I had another thought on this subject last week.
I remember reading on this site a year or so ago that high octane fuel vapourises faster.
So I am testing this theory by using regular unleaded for a while and riding the bike in hot weather to see if it faulters again.
I normally use 95 but was using 98 for the first year or so.
The bike does not run as sweetly on 92 but I haven't had a vapour problem since I switched over.
Rgds BUSGO
"TAKE MY ADVICE"
I'm not using it anyway!<i></i>
G'day
A bit of an update...
I'm not slow, I'm not fast, I'm just half-fast.
Reading the manual (unusual) it says replace hoses every 4 years after checking condition every 6 months. So I ordered the hoses. Took a month to gettem (on back order from Japan).
So yesterday I got brave and covered the garage floor in petrol. Also pulled the pump out and now I understand what most of your comments were about. The insulating boot is in pieces (I don't think it helps when it is soaked in fuel :-) ). I had to cut slots in those crappy screws to get them out so I'll track down hex heads today. Filters in the pump look reasonably clean, but I'll replace the paper one because I can't tell whether it's clean or not.
I'll be lucky if they are in stock I reckon.
Then I'll attempt a replacement without throwing all the bits down the driveway, and cover the floor with fuel again just before I replace the hoses :-)
Just in case, is that spare pump still available?
Regards
Kevin <i></i>
Hi Kevin,
I think you will find that the paper filters are in stock but cost about $45 from memory.
I kept my old one which didn't seem to be blocked at all when I replaced it. The fuel flowed through it like it wasn't even there. I did replace my fuel lines with OEM ones and they didn't fix the problem.
A bit of an update on my low octane theory.
The bike ran fine but not good and I am now back to 95 or 98 octane.
To counteract this though, I have installed a new fuel feeder line with a larger capacity hole that allows more fuel through and it is also reinforced to stop it from crimping when hot.
This appears to have stopped my problems over the last 2 weeks.
The crappy OEM lines you buy from Suzuki are not reinforced in any way and they crimp at the first sign of heat.
I hope this helps to solve both your and my problems once and for all.
Rgds BUSGO
"TAKE MY ADVICE"
I'm not using it anyway!<i></i>
G'day,
Well, eventually the hoses turned up (on back order) and I pulled the fuel pump (yes a bitch of a job) out and apart and ordered all filters and O rings from Action pmatta - all had to come from Melbourne, another couple of days - but I didn't order a replacement plastic mesh screen (called an insulator in the 'fiche) coz that was another $100 or sumpin. The paper filter and the hemispherical filter and the O rings cost $120. And I got 4 hex drive bolts.
So, to the installation...the pump all went back together without drama, only a little skin off knuckle, about 45 minutes from pieces on floor to installed in bike.
Now, the hoses...fairly obviously not correct becoz no moulded bit on end. As was the old ones. But proper size 7mm with I thought thin walls. So obviously let's get stronger walls if possible, so down to clark rubber - all out. But they did have some insulating type foam sheets. Down to supercheap auto, tried to sell me power steering hose by mistake - all out of fuel hose. Chrissy must be fuel hose time. On to Repco, where I bought 1 metre of reinforced 7mm internal fuel hose. And new hose clamps.
I carefully cut the lengths to match the existing, attached one end to the fuel pump, did a very quick release of the plug and reattachment of the new hose, very little spilt fuel, going well, now what is that trickling noise I hear? Oh, that's the sound of fuel running into the pump and out the other hole! And on to the floor...another quick temporary plug on there and a cleanup and ready to go again on the second hose. At least I am reassured the fuel pump flows OK. Now, I have two ends that are gunna spew fuel as soon as I lettem go...and the end of the existing hose that fits over the barbs (which would be the moulded section I guess?) has to be cut off with a stanley knife. So to cut the humour short, I did not cut my hands with the knife, but did spill some (lots) of fuel getting both ends reattached. You'll have to use your imagination....
And a test ride...one son on repaired bus and me on new one...46km no probs, pull up and he reports some hesitation in last couple of kliks. We swap rides. 2 kliks up the road it stops. I sit and wait a couple of minutes. It starts. 2 kliks up the road it stops. I sit and wait a couple of minutes. It does not start. I lift the seat and bonnet. It starts. I carefully lower the bonnet trying to not kink hoses. 10kliks to home, no probs.
Lesson? Maybe even reinforced hose can be forced to kink when it gets warm enough...and maybe the previous fitter made his hoses too long by a smidgen...and maybe I should be more careful when lowering the bonnet....
So, I reckon I should shorten those hoses an inch or so. But I'll wait until there is less fuel in the tank to spill :-)...and I'll take it out a couple more times for testing before I do that, just to see....
Regards
Kevin
<i></i>
I'm glad you tackled the problem Kev, but I hate to tell you that if you look under the ducktale of your 99 busa, there are two rubber plugs that should be used to block off the fuel lines while you work on the pump.
If you have owned the bike since new, they should be there.
Unfortunately mine were not and I had to make a set of clamps to hold the hoses while I worked.
Yes, you do get a lot of petrol splashing around and it is not a job for a smoker.....
Rgds BUSGO
"TAKE MY ADVICE"
I'm not using it anyway!<i></i>
G'day
Yep I read that in the manual, along with replace the hoses every 4 years, but I bought the bus secondhand in 00 or 01 and the ducktail is now full of CB/intercom, AM/FM radio for the commute, standard toolkit and a few rags, and I've never noticed any bungs in earlier exploratory expeditions, so didn't bother evn looking. Are they loose, in the toolbag or plugged somewhere in the standard arrangement?
Regards
Kevin
PS did 40 kliks down the M4 this morning, never missed a beat...getting more comfortable with it... <i></i>
Kev,
In the toolkit housing bay there are two little lugs sticking up in the right rear corner. They should have the rubber plugs on them.
Mine doesn't have them either.
Rgds BUSGO
"TAKE MY ADVICE"
I'm not using it anyway!<i></i>
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