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+--- Thread: K9 Target AFR for PC V (/showthread.php?tid=13482)
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K9 Target AFR for PC V - DOH11 - 02-10-2009
I'm trying find out the ideal target AFR for each RPM point and throttle opening for the power Commander V with Autotune. Currrent settings are in the picture but I'd like an idea if they are in the ballpark before heading to the Dyno.
I've enabled autotune and done a few hot laps around the neighborhood then checked the Trim and it varies greatly between runs despite commiting the trims to the map after each run. Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Bikes running K&N filter and Yoshi 4 into 1 full stainless system with R77 can.
Many Thanks
Brett
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - fasterfaster - 02-10-2009
Brett it's all over the shop
As an example it's running more fuel at idle than thru the mid range ? 100% throttle is not to bad but bordering towards lean. You asked for suggestions ?
Pull the PCV and the Autotune and the 02 sensor and simply flash the ECU ............ (Have a map custom built by your dyno shop) Probably at well below a third of the cost with more options and a better end result and far far less complicated.
Also removes the chance of after market components failing at a later date as well.
I realise you have obviously allready brought the units, but I guess for prospective buyers / victims of power commander blurb, put quite bluntly a better result which is correct fuel mapping with a custom fuel map could be obtained at roughly $1000 less by flashing and then if you take into account you also gain a TRE by doing so the cost effectiveness of flashing is that it basically leaves the owner with $1200
more in his pocket.Now that ain't to bad
Just had another look over the fuel map and it's interesting to note that ALL settings only range from 13.0 to 1 ....... to 13.6 to 1
Given 12.8 is ideal full power and lambda being 14.7 it would appear to once again confirm that 02 sensor mapping certianly tunes for emissions and economy and not for power and performance
If you take the 8000 rpm across the throttle range as an example it's saying the motor only needs .2 % more fuel at full throttle than it does at 2 % throttle
Ooooops thats 
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Camel - 02-10-2009
It would be interesting to see just how consistently the Busa's narrowband sensor works without the catalytic converter in place and in a free flowing exhaust system.
I know it's got its own heater element, but factors like rapid heat fluctuations and (back) pressure play on it as well. You can't discount the stabilising effect of the cat because the tip of the sensor sits quite close to it. Here's a shot of the cat through my wideband bunghole (!) The proximity of the narrowband to the cat is similar to this.
![[Image: WBS_011_Bunghole.jpg]](http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t20/camel_geselle/electrical/WBS_011_Bunghole.jpg)
The point is that I'm not so sure the narrowband sensor is a wise choice for 'autotune' once you take the catalytic converter out of the system. The narrowband is only useful in reading stoich (14.7:1), it struggles to read AFR accurately either side of the 'narrowband' that straddles lambda. Can the PCV be used with a wideband sensor like the LSU 4.2?
![[Image: WBS_002_NarrowvsWide.jpg]](http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t20/camel_geselle/electrical/WBS_002_NarrowvsWide.jpg)
Standard Busa narrowband sensor on the left, wideband LSU 4.2 sensor on the rightCamel
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - DOH11 - 03-10-2009
Camel,
The "Autotune" module comes with a Wideband 4.2 LSU and a mounting boss. The reason I went for the 4 into 1 exhaust was I didn't like the idea of taking the plasma cutter to the std headers in case I wanted to return the bike to "Stock" in future. Seems the Japanese can take a lesson from the europeans as they have the larger boss on their headers and use a screw in reducer for the narrow band sensor. Easier to swap sensors around that way.
The AF ratios I have in the table are basically what was in the map file I downloaded and haven't changed as yet. I wasn't aware the stock ECU could be reflashed till after getting the PCV though. If I was going to re-flash the stock ECU i'd be wanting the software / harware reuired to return it back to stock myself as I never like to rely on third parties. I work all sorts of weird hours and all over the place so it's never easy scheduling dyno time or time to have someone work on the bike.
I'll continue my research :)
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - fasterfaster - 03-10-2009
despite commiting the trims to the map after each run.
The map you posted then is standard or trimmed ?
(03-10-2009, 09:12am)fasterfaster Wrote: despite commiting the trims to the map after each run.
The map you posted then is standard or trimmed ?
Sorry the suggestion was not to your liking ......... but you did ask
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Camel - 03-10-2009
Hi Brett,
sorry mate, I'm not clear on something, is the table you posted above the original base map as available from the powercommander site?
Can you upload the trimmed map for us to have a look at?
I've (obviously) had nothing to do with PCV and autotune, (hence the wideband question) but the principles are straightforward and conventional.
Camel
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - fasterfaster - 03-10-2009
Just had a look at a Commander map for the R77 system and as Brett has said it's pretty much as downloaded ? It looks like they just throw a basic 13.2 across the board and let the unit try and fight for those TARGET settings ? Which once again would be emission and economy not performance and Hp.
Could only suggest if you wish to use this system set full power 100 % throttle TARGET as 12.8 and idle at 14.7 then try and correlate settings in between taking into account throttle/rpm and engine load conditions.
Remembering also that these are TARGET values ONLY and not actual fuel map settings, so a way of monitoring ACTUAL fuel readings would be the ideal.
Just to stress here Brett merely trying to help you get some value for your money, as Power Commander I believe have a lot to answer for regards how they market their products to the consumer. They don't even supply maps for Australian bikes !
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - DOH11 - 03-10-2009
Guys,
Probably best to clarify a few things as there are 3 different tables in play on the PCV with autotune enabled rather then just the single table without autotune.
Background info in not already understood
1. Fuel Table - Adds or subtracts injector duty cycle from existing ECU signal to either increase or decrease fuel for a given RPM / Throttle opening.
2. Target AFR - The Target Air fuel ratio for a given Throttle / RPM point.
3. Trim - Looks at the Target Air fuel ratio then dynamically adds / subtracts duty cycle based on Lamba reading of actual AFR and applying to values in fuel table.
My question is basically what is the best air fuel ratio thats the best balance of power / saftey at each rpm/throttle opening.
Image supplied previously was the target AF ratio...not the fuel table or trim table. The trim table gets built dynamically whilst riding and can be written to the fuel table using the laptop.
Hope I did a better job of explaining what's going on....It's a well known fact the engineers have the worst documentation skills.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - fasterfaster - 03-10-2009
Ahhhhhhhhhh I see now
It must have been Camels Stoichmetric that got me a little confused 
The answer to your question was in my previous post >>>
Set for 12.8 at full power 100 % throttle and idle setting at 14.7 then try and correlate settings in between taking into account throttle/rpm and engine load conditions.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - spamanglenn - 03-10-2009
Wont the narrowband retrim the idle as per factory.ive logged them at 13.8-14.2 at idle.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Camel - 03-10-2009
Spamanglen,
I went and read up on the PCV (albeit reluctantly). The PCV requires removal of the stock O2 sensor. Open loop, so the ECU can be more easily misled.
Brett, re: trim table gotcha now.
Camel
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Shiro Taka - 03-10-2009
FastrFaster - do you know of anyone in Perth who can FLASH my k9? I was thinkning of a power commander but after reading your commments I would prefer to "Experience The New Era of Tuning *FLASHING*"
Any assistance would be appreciated.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - fasterfaster - 03-10-2009
(03-10-2009, 09:43pm)Shiro Taka Wrote: FastrFaster - do you know of anyone in Perth who can FLASH my k9? I was thinkning of a power commander but after reading your commments I would prefer to "Experience The New Era of Tuning *FLASHING*"
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Shiro not sure who is flashing in Perth as yet ? Mark (Camel) may be able to help you more there being in the west ?
In saying that no reason why you cannot buy a flash kit yourself (Only a little more than half the price of a commander) and simply take the kit along to a good dyno shop and get them to build you a custom map with it.
Any dyno shop that says they can't build you a map with it your best not to go to in any case for they obviously don't have a clue.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Shiro Taka - 03-10-2009
Ok thanks FasterFaster. If you can give me a clue what is a flash kit - a brand or model or where I might begin to look for one would help me get started.
If there are folks here in Perth (camel?) that have local knowledge or experience please feel free to point me in the right direction.
RE: K9 Target AFR for PC V - Camel - 03-10-2009
Shiro Taka
I'm off to Qld for a couple of weeks on Monday. Back on the 20th.
There's quite a bit of interest in it over here. Maybe we should run a workshop?
Pete, have you got interfaces in stock?
Camel