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+--- Thread: Check your cam-lobes (/showthread.php?tid=13157)
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Check your cam-lobes - Madmax - 25-08-2009
Hi all,
I've had a bit of a "tacka tacka" noise coming from the motor the last week or so. Booked her into CMC Mitchell to get the cam-chain done as the noise has to have been the camchain- she's got around 67k on her.
Should have been a 2-3 hour job.
Got a call this arvo advising that the cam lobes case hardening is lifting on a few of the lobes and screwing the cam buckets case hardening as well. These are the stage one Yoshi cams.
I took the originals down so they could put them back in while I play games with Yoshimura (the things are only 2 years old) only to find out the originals, that only have 24K on them are suffering from cam-lobe problems as well.
At this stage I have left the standard cams with the shop and they are going to speak to Suzuki in the morning about replacing them under warranty as they only had 24k on them when they came out. All work done through that shop so there should be no suggestion that anyone else has done anything to it.
There are 10 cam buckets that require replacement - at $60 each - straight up $600 gone. This could turn into a nightmare yet!
The camchain job will cost around $400, so a $grand just disappearedIt's hard to see the cam lobes as the cam-cap assembly is a single long piece of alloy that hides the lobes from view when you have the cam cover off.
I'll let you know how Suzuki jump on this issue. Could be a fight in it yet, haven't we had enough of of late!
They loaned me a Suzuki 400 Motard until they get the bike back on the road - very helful shop these days. The little screamer is a heap of fun around town!
Later
Max
RE: Check your cam-lobes - hawkwind - 26-08-2009
(25-08-2009, 11:50pm)Madmax Wrote: Hi all,
I've had a bit of a "tacka tacka" noise coming from the motor the last week or so. Booked her into CMC Mitchell to get the cam-chain done as the noise has to have been the camchain- she's got around 67k on her.
Should have been a 2-3 hour job.
Got a call this arvo advising that the cam lobes case hardening is lifting on a few of the lobes and screwing the cam buckets case hardening as well. These are the stage one Yoshi cams.
I took the originals down so they could put them back in while I play games with Yoshimura (the things are only 2 years old) only to find out the originals, that only have 24K on them are suffering from cam-lobe problems as well.
At this stage I have left the standard cams with the shop and they are going to speak to Suzuki in the morning about replacing them under warranty as they only had 24k on them when they came out. All work done through that shop so there should be no suggestion that anyone else has done anything to it.
There are 10 cam buckets that require replacement - at $60 each - straight up $600 gone. This could turn into a nightmare yet!
It's hard to see the cam lobes as the cam-cap assembly is a single long piece of alloy that hides the lobes from view when you have the cam cover off.
I'll let you know how Suzuki jump on this issue. Could be a fight in it yet, haven't we had enough of of late!
They loaned me a Suzuki 400 Motard until they get the bike back on the road - very helful shop these days. The little screamer is a heap of fun around town!
Later
Max
Max sorry to hear of your problems , here are some thoughts , cam lobe wear causes that i know of are
1. faulty cams ,eg I had many years ago some honda V4's and these had bad cams hard facing wore off very quickly after less than 1000k's ,your stockers and the yoshies do not fit this catagory
2. most likely cause will be an oiling issue ,have your mechanic check for oil supply or pressure problems ,also look at the oil itself ,type ,viscosity,wear additive content ( most oils these days are very low in zinc or its ilk ) which is important at start up where there is a lot of metal to metal contact ,change intervals etc
3.less likely but worth a check is your valve spring seat pressure ,the higher the pressure the faster the wear , also were the buckets in good condition when you swapped over the cams ?
4. not common but condensation can be a problem in the colder areas ,especially if the bike sits for extended periods of time , I have this problem and one set of cams got quite pitted with rust
my prime suspect long periods of ideling with low oil pressure
cheers
gary
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Madmax - 26-08-2009
Max sorry to hear of your problems , here are some thoughts , cam lobe wear causes that i know of are
2. most likely cause will be an oiling issue ,have your mechanic check for oil supply or pressure problems ,also look at the oil itself ,type ,viscosity,wear additive content ( most oils these days are very low in zinc or its ilk ) which is important at start up where there is a lot of metal to metal contact ,change intervals etc
4. not common but condensation can be a problem in the colder areas ,especially if the bike sits for extended periods of time , I have this problem and one set of cams got quite pitted with rust
my prime suspect long periods of ideling with low oil pressure
cheers
gary
[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestions Gary,
Just spoke to the shop and passed on the oil pressure suggestion. They are going to have a look at that.
I do warm the bike up before riding it awaybut blip the throttle to ensure over 2krpms so the oil flows.
I don't do short distances - 18 kays to work during which she gets a good warm up.
I wont chase Yoshimura yet as it may be a Suzuki problem. There was certainly nothing wrong with the cams when they went in, I gave them a close look when I bought them from you. The bike has done this I'd say.
It will be interesting to see which direction this goes. The shop are being pretty generous loaning me the motard to get me to and from work. Fun little bike.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Busdriver - 26-08-2009
I did an internet search on cam lobe wear.
Lots and lots of articles. It seems that there has been reductions in the amount of zinc/phosphorus in engine oils that may not have helped.
Just try researching the content of these ingredients in your oil.
For example: Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w40) and V-twin(25w50) have almost twice the amount of zinc/phosphorus, 1700ppm & 1600ppm respectively, that other engine oils have.
Having trouble finding the ppm for Motul oils. Off to see if there is anything on an empty bottle I have in the garage.
EDIT: Just read the back of the Motul bottle. Suitable for catalytic converters. From what I have read this morning, these ingredients in larger amount may be detrimental to catalytic converters. mmm ???
RE: Check your cam-lobes - ohdear - 26-08-2009
Different people have different experiences with oils ............... mine personally to sum it up ............... when I picked up my Gen II I told dealer if they had Motul oil in it I wouldn't take the bike.
Fork oils etc appear ok ............... but have seen quite a few failures over the years and the common denominator in a lot of cases was the oil brand. Seriously you could give it to me and i wouldn't use it in my motor.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Madmax - 26-08-2009
(26-08-2009, 11:08am)ohdear Wrote: Different people have different experiences with oils ............... mine personally to sum it up ............... when I picked up my Gen II I told dealer if they had Motul oil in it I wouldn't take the bike.Thanks for that. I got with CMC this morning - they use Motul exclusively, mind you Yamaha want them to use Yamaha oil.
Fork oils etc appear ok ............... but have seen quite a few failures over the years and the common denominator in a lot of cases was the oil brand. Seriously you could give it to me and i wouldn't use it in my motor.
Oils aint just oild apparently.
(26-08-2009, 10:42am)Busdriver Wrote: I did an internet search on cam lobe wear.
Lots and lots of articles. It seems that there has been reductions in the amount of zinc/phosphorus in engine oils that may not have helped.
Just try researching the content of these ingredients in your oil.
For example: Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w40) and V-twin(25w50) have almost twice the amount of zinc/phosphorus, 1700ppm & 1600ppm respectively, that other engine oils have.
Having trouble finding the ppm for Motul oils. Off to see if there is anything on an empty bottle I have in the garage.
EDIT: Just read the back of the Motul bottle. Suitable for catalytic converters. From what I have read this morning, these ingredients in larger amount may be detrimental to catalytic converters. mmm ???
You do good research old man. Thanks.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Busdriver - 26-08-2009
Just to clarify my post above re the zinc and phosphorus.
Both the Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w40) and V-twin (25w50) have 1700ppm zinc and 1600ppm phosphorus.
Also, FYI, both these oils are fully synthetic.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Hutch99 - 26-08-2009
ive been hearing a similar noise lately(last 5Ks) comes and goes every few secs...
got me paranoid android now!
and is Motul300V, good oil??? been sitting on the shelf since i got it.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Ozboc - 27-08-2009
Yes , got me paranoid now also , i use Motoul in my bikes (2000) being told its the better of the oils - which one is the best choice? the mobile race oil ?
Busaboc
RE: Check your cam-lobes - spamanglenn - 27-08-2009
letting the bike idle at 1100 rpm when the oil is hot and thin ive seen oil pressure readings down to 6-8psi which is 3 parts of f all.People need to get over the obsession with 1100-1150 rpm idle and leave the idle up around 1300-1400 and it gets you up around 15psi at least.Oils aint oils is also true and all i,ll say is regular oil changes and good oil and i dont have any wear issues even on big cams.If people must have a low idle perhaps a 50w oil will give a bit more viscosity and oil pressure whilst hot.Leonard told me about the low rpm oil pressure issue and a oil pressure gauge in place of the sender unit confirmed it.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - ohdear - 27-08-2009
Probably best to just hold idle up with choke/ fast idle lever as altering "base" idle also changes TPS settings. Gen II it's controlled by ICS and even though the idle can be re set with SDS would probably throw out an error code at rpm as high as 1400 rpm and also SDS probably wouldn't allow ISC to be set with rpm that high.
All the gogly gook aside ............... the right oil's a damn good start. I've seen Busa motors with 160 K on the clock and not a mark ................ not even a shim out of adjustment.
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Ruffy - 27-08-2009
Col (10/10ths) used to tell me that the idle revs needed to be about 1300rpm which i thought was a bit high but complied, old 99er had close to 70k on the clock with no shim adjustment or any "tacka tacka" noises either.
Only a crash could kill her - and did
Cheers Ruffy
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Madmax - 28-08-2009
(27-08-2009, 09:55am)Ruffy Wrote: Col (10/10ths) used to tell me that the idle revs needed to be about 1300rpm which i thought was a bit high but complied, old 99er had close to 70k on the clock with no shim adjustment or any "tacka tacka" noises either.
Only a crash could kill her - and did
Cheers Ruffy
Well I must confess that I am truly f****d! Got the call from CMC yesterday (coul;dn't get on the list to advise) telling me that a little wet and dry had taken all the nasty looking bits ogff the standard cam lobes and to come and have a look. They're only 3 kays down the road so I went down sure enough the cam lobes looked pretty good. Spewzuki have no inlet cams in Aussie, Peter, the mechanic, said he would use them in his bike. He is the nearest thing to a mechanic this shop has had in years and a member of our local riding club.
They note that they have not discovered why the Yoshi cam started coming apart and have sent them to a shop in Sydney to get them re-case hardened.
Let's hope this is the end of this episode.
I did ride her pretty hard on the way home - she sounds pretty good. With 10 new cambuckets at $60 each, a new camchain, replaced cams and $1300+ later she would want to sound better!!
Still not happy with the oil so will change next minor service.
Max
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Hutch99 - 28-08-2009
[quote='Ozboc' pid='188682' dateline='1251321032']
Yes , got me paranoid now also , i use Motoul in my bikes (2000) being told its the better of the oils - which one is the best choice? the mobile race oil ?
Busaboc
i use Motul 300V... well its been sitting there since i got it.
is it good or shit???
RE: Check your cam-lobes - Madmax - 28-08-2009
(28-08-2009, 10:38pm)Hutch99 Wrote: [quote='Ozboc' pid='188682' dateline='1251321032']
Yes , got me paranoid now also , i use Motoul in my bikes (2000) being told its the better of the oils - which one is the best choice? the mobile race oil ?
Busaboc
i use Motul 300V... well its been sitting there since i got it.
is it good or shit???
To quote the sage "Grasshopper make a circle with your thumb and forefinger - now draw it in and out around your nose while saying the ancient words "Fucknose!"
That will open a whole new can of worms fella - which is the best oil?
Who can say?
Who dares?
Everyone is listening!